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From: Ola Lundqvist (opal_at_debian.org)
Date: Tue 21 Dec 2004 - 17:44:48 GMT


Hello

On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 06:28:35PM +0100, Herbert Poetzl wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 21, 2004 at 06:09:29PM +0100, Ola Lundqvist wrote:
> > Hello
> >
> > I know that this thread is old but I have to answer as I'm the
> > maintainer.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 03:53:42PM +0100, Bjrn Steinbrink wrote:
> > > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:35:18 +0000 (UTC)
> > > Jesper Krogh <jesper_at_krogh.cc> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I gmane.linux.vserver, skrev Herbert Poetzl:
> > > > > On Tue, Nov 09, 2004 at 08:40:09AM +0000, Jesper Krogh wrote:
> > > > > > I gmane.linux.vserver, skrev Dariush Pietrzak:
> > > > > > > > I'd really like to test this vserver thing out, but currently
> > > > > > > > it clashes with my policy of only installing things through
> > > > > > > > the packages system on my computers.
> > > > >
> > > > > well, either you start building packages for your
> > > > > package system, you rethink your policy, or you
> > > > > choose not to test 'this vserver thing' ...
> > > >
> > > > Sure.. I'll go that way. I'd just like to know if the were available
> > > > somewhere, so I could skip kernel compilation.
> > > >
> > > > > > I tried make-kpkg yesterday with the debian-kernel 2.6.9 source
> > > > > > and vserver patch, that actually worked, (in regards to vserver)
> > > > > > but failed getting pcmcia/wireless to work.
> > > > >
> > > > > well, debian source is debian source, linux-vserver
> > > > > patches are based on the vanilla kernel not on some
> > > > > distro kernel ...
> > > >
> > > > Ok.. so I'll go for the vanilla kernel in the next try.
> > > >
> > > > > > I'd really like to have a couple of vservers at my laptop for
> > > > > > testing software installations :-) Isn't this a common usage of
> > > > > > Vservers?
> > > > >
> > > > > yes, it is also common practice to avoid debian
> > > > > to get a working linux-vserver setup ...
> > > >
> > > > For any particular reason?
> > >
> > > Because debian packages are made to work with debian packages. That
> > > means that if you use the debian util-vserver package it is best to use
> > > their kernel patch and their helper stuff, it won't work too well with
> > > non debianized stuff. Problem is: debian stuff is often outdated, f.e.
> > > from what i remember debian has an (old) vserver patch for 2.6 (devel),
> > > but the tools are kept at 0.30 (stable), thus you can't use the new
> > > features (except if the debian maintainers wrote/backported tools...).
> >
> > I would like to say like this: Debian tend to ship well tested
> > and stable versions. The kernel patch for 2.6 kernel was an experiment
> > and I actually think it was a bad ida to add it there. I have got
> > many misunderstandings about this version.
>
> let me ask two questions here, and please don't get me wrong:
>
> a) _who_ is testing the debian vserver tools/kernel patches?

Debian users, you and I. What I wanted to state is that Debian
ship the versions that you find stable (with minor modifications to suite
Debian better). I do not want to maintain both the development branch
and the stable branch at the same time.

> b) _why_ doesn't the maintainer (you) talk a little more with
> the developers (enrico, bjoern, myself ...)

I have not really had the time lately. I have switched work and no longer
do this at my work time. Unfortunatly. Hope you do not mind.

There is one package vserver-debiantools that I have created in order to
make util-vserver more similar to "upstream" in order to avoid confusion.
Hope you do not mind.

> > > Also, since some packages have very little in common with the upstream,
> > > it's a real pain to fix issues if you don't happen to be the debian
> > > maintainer.
> >
> > Patches are always welcome!
> >
> > > You should have a look at the list's
> > > archives and search for message from/to debian maintainers, maybe that
> > > helps understanding why, for linux-vserver, the debianized stuff is not
> > > the first choice.
> >
> > I would like to tell that util-vserver on 2.4 is very well tested. The
> > reason why the 2.6 version is not included in Debian is that is is not
> > stable (still development as far as I know).
>
> right, as you can tell from the version ... but neither is 2.6
> (which you can't tell from the version ;) so how comes that
> folks show up which _believe_ they have to use outdated debian
> tools for 2.6 versions?

They think that because I ship the 2.6 kernel patch it must work with
the util-vserver tool. I made a mistake, because in the current latest version
of util-vserver have problems with /proc and 2.6 kernel.

> > > That said, i want to say that i've used debian a long time and i like
> > > it, but sometimes their (or a maintainer's, dunno) packaging policies
> > > don't fit a project very well. Linux-VServer is such a project as it
> > > seems.
> >
> > Well I do not really see your problem here. If you want to use
> > development branch you have to use it from upstream. Stable versions
> > is what is intended for release, or do I misunderstand something here?
>
> I'd say there are _many_ misunderstandings on all sides, and
> the folks paying for that are the end-users, which IMHO is
> a very bad policy ... my 'solutions' to this are (in order of
> preference)
>
> a) get somebody to maintain stable and devel vserver packages
> who keeps in close touch and uses linux-vserver ...
> (not necessarily the same person)

People are welcome to help me. I will probably maintain the development
branch when there is some indication that it is not in alpha state anymore.
It might have changed since I looked last time, and that is a few months
ago.

> b) avoid changes and package the upstream stuff so that the
> linux-vserver folks can 'maintain' those packages too ...

I try to make them as small as possible, at least for the userspace
part. I have to make some changes though in order to make it compatible
with LSB, FHS and debian policy.

> c) drop the debian packages and linux-vserver 'support' for
> now and let debian folks use the upstream stuff, which
> has support and is working ...

Isn't that what I'm doing. The problem is the kernel patches and the
reason for this is the Debian kernel. I can unfortunatly not change that.

I try to make as little changes as possible, but I need correct issues
that happens with debian systems.

Regards,

// Ola

> best,
> Herbert
>
> > Regards,
> >
> > // Ola
> >
> > > Bjoern
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
> > >
> >
> > --
> > --------------------- Ola Lundqvist ---------------------------
> > / opal_at_debian.org Annebergsslingan 37 \
> > | opal_at_lysator.liu.se 654 65 KARLSTAD |
> > | +46 (0)54-10 14 30 +46 (0)70-332 1551 |
> > | http://www.opal.dhs.org UIN/icq: 4912500 |
> > \ gpg/f.p.: 7090 A92B 18FE 7994 0C36 4FE4 18A1 B1CF 0FE5 3DD9 /
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
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> > http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
> _______________________________________________
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>

-- 
 --------------------- Ola Lundqvist ---------------------------
/  opal_at_debian.org                     Annebergsslingan 37      \
|  opal_at_lysator.liu.se                 654 65 KARLSTAD          |
|  +46 (0)54-10 14 30                  +46 (0)70-332 1551       |
|  http://www.opal.dhs.org             UIN/icq: 4912500         |
\  gpg/f.p.: 7090 A92B 18FE 7994 0C36  4FE4 18A1 B1CF 0FE5 3DD9 /
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
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